#Ghis was a fuckin horror show before dragons even existed pretending it wasn’t is willful ignorance but okay

[spirit-meets-the-b0ne]

So a few things that I wanted to cover in response to this and other reblogs, mainly divided into two different areas: things we agree on and things we can expand on.

Things we can agree on, was the Empire of Valyria built on grotesque human suffering and dragon fire? Yes. Were the Valyrians the ones who first enslaved Essos civilians? No. Valyrians themselves were in fact first enslaved by the Ghiscarians during their many wars and subsequently enslaved the Ghis after their final victory over them. Did the Targaryen’s after their conquest of Westeros continue the “tradition” of Valyria and perpetuate slavery? Also no. Did the slaves build the city of Valyria or Dragonstone? No there’s actually no textual evidence to support this either. Actually here’s the answer to that from George himself:

So in reality the greatest example of the suffering of the Valyrian Freehold’s slaves really is the Valyrian Steel Swords themselves. So if as you said, “Weeping for the fall of Valyria is the in-universe equivalent of weeping for Nazi Germany.” Then I would ask you, what do you make of Westerosi lords and kings carrying around essentially Nazi memorabilia? Every Valyrian Steel sword is effectively a blood diamond! That much I will wholeheartedly agree on. Any way you look at it, the steel to make it and the blood magic used to bend it was a byproduct of human suffering. So why are those swords still carried and celebrated? It’s a good question! Even the noble Ned Stark carried Ice as if it wasn’t a product of the evils of that empire.

To another degree, while on the subject I would argue that the Nazi’s are actually not the best comparison for Valyria for several reasons outside of just abject cruelty and human exploitation being the major equivalent between the two. Nazi Germany was founded as a totalitarian dictatorship, whereas The Freehold was ruled by 40 families of varying levels of power and influence, Targs were actually low down on the totem pole here too. The structure and time it’s placed in for the story is really more akin to the empires of ancient Egypt or Roman Empire. George would probably opt for Ancient Egypt as the more fitting comparison in terms of advanced technology but also unhindered cruelty to the enslaved laborers. Even if the Freehold had been a singular ruler of evil it’s always strange to me that the Nazis are the only ones brought up in the discussion as if the regimes of Pol Pot, Ghengis Khan, King Leopold, etc. aren’t right there for comparison? Just strange that this fandom can only ever find Nazis as a comparison and no one else, whether this is laziness or ignorance I’m not sure. But okay just for the sake of argument let’s say Valyria is a total equivalent to Nazi Germany and their quest for world domination- where do we place the Targaryens in this respect? Would it not make sense to compare them to the scientists who defected from their condemnable countries like Werner von Braun or the USSR’s Kanatzhan “Ken” Alibek? After all the Targaryen’s came to Westeros and did not reinstate slavery, did not use blood magic, DID give people religious freedom, and abolished the law of First Night tradition. Does that make them inherently good? No, but there lies the crux of this whole discussion.

Trying to apply moral purity to these houses and societies is a messy and reductive take. George wrote these realistic stories and narratives because reality is a messy and often morally gray place. GRRM studies history and the attitude of historians is the nature of how he tries to write. I mean I personally can’t get enough about the history of the Ottoman empire and Mehmed II’s (known as Mehmed the Conqueror) siege of Constantinople. Other than inspiring a hit song obviously that event isn’t a happy historical moment and I don’t celebrate that campaign for its death toll but for other reasons it’s an incredible feat. I see a lot of comparison points for Aegon I and Mehmed II however and shit like this to me is more enriching to the texts.

So again, was the Empire itself an inherently evil force, yes absolutely. However, doesn’t that also add more nuance to the Doom? The greatest theory I’ve seen suggesting that the slaves rose up in anger and turned to the early foundation of the Faceless men to kill the Fire Mages who kept the 14 flames at bay and this resulting in the collapse of the Freehold. In this respect, the Valyrians paid the ultimate price for their lust for power, greed and cruelty. It’s actually metal as fuck that this is likely the way things went down. So perhaps I should clarify , an empirical evil provides privilege for those at the top, those who reject that society (remember that the Targaryens were looked at as traitors and cowards for leaving[they literally called him Aenar the Exile]) have choices to make. What determines the label of evil is an amalgamation of intent, opportunity, circumstance and actions (Aegon I vs Maegor). Is it implausible to look at the Targaryens as foils for their own society and suggest perhaps the survivors could look at the Doom as a biblical warning like the story of Moses and the Egyptians? In the sense that, this was a retribution of their society’s evils and they should learn to never repeat these sins.

After all, dragons and incest are the only Valyrian things they brought with them to Westeros, slavery and blood magic did not have a rebirth in Westeros. (Westeros also participated in incest but only at the level of cousins but again this a weak leg to stand on.) If it had gone that way THEN that would be a major case. So? Targaryen madness you might think? Well that’s been proven to be mostly propaganda peddled but Westerosi citizens because the evidence shows that of the Targaryen rule: 9 Targaryens have been mad throughout history while 27 have been great, 4 have been a little bit of both and 35 have been neither mad or great. Kind of like the Roman Empire only having “The 5 Good Emperors” and one of which, Marcus Aurelius, is still celebrated for his insights outside the context of the Empire. It would also be a Targaryen princess who would go on to free slaves and kill slave masters in Essos because plenty of people interacting with this post are willfully ignorant of the fact that Ghis, and several other of the Essos cities participated in slavery before and after the Valyrians.

It’s the same arguments as labeling everything in ASIOF universe as a war crime when none of these mfs ever went to the Geneva Conventions. If they did BOY would Tywin Lannister have gotten the electric chair, because even a “noble man of Westeros” could commit VILE and heinous acts of evil but get off effectively Scot free. Trying to paint this world with broad strokes doesn’t really work, because not everyone in Westeros is the noble honorable Ned Stark and it’s a gross misinterpretation to suggest that’s the case. Just as much as it’s disingenuous to act like Essos was a nice equitable place before the Valyrians when textually that’s not accurate either. Did the Valyrians do horrible shit? Yes. Is that the only evil in the world then? No. The people who practiced dark magic, necromancy, pyromancy and blood magic from Asshai certainly deserve to be brought into the discussions. However, almost never hear a word about that.

So just to reiterate, yes the Valyrians and Nazis were both evil powers. Slavery is wrong. Blood magic is fucked up. Sometimes people or families come from backgrounds of these evil super powers and either repeat or break their cycles. The difference between these actions really determines the character or in the case of a ruling monarch, their reign is defined by this. A Targaryen reflecting back on Valyria with the strict focus on architecture is not indicative of celebrating slavery (because once again, the slaves didn’t build those buildings or Dragonstone) because if Viserys or any other ruling Targ truly wanted to celebrate that well then they could just make it happen! An absolute monarchy means at any moment slavery could be made law once again, while it might be contested it was well within the realm of possibility if that’s what the King so chooses. Since that isn’t that case, it was worth the elaboration.

While I find it a little ridiculous to even be this pedantic about it I feel it necessary because this fandom loves to try to post from a moral high horse and many of them cannot even reach the proverbial saddle. George made it apparent that these characters and stories are meant to challenge us in the way of just white knights and mustache twirling villains.

I can’t believe what a point of contention this has become. I genuinely cannot understand the animosity towards it lol

Seriously post after post bitching and crying and begging for this to be destroyed - now besides how grossly disrespectful that would be to the stone masons who worked on this for years - it’s bizarre? I understand the criticism against Viserys (as a father, husband, King) but as a Targaryen - this endeavor is probably the most noble. So, while I see the childish thought process behind “smashing his legos” - come on be ffr.

The Doom of Valyria was catastrophic and while I’m hesitant to call it a “lost civilization” it is akin to the Atlantian mythology in nature and description. It’s not only the ancestral home of Houses Targaryen and Velaryon, but it was a major hub of magic, the most advanced city in the known world and likely the place of origin of the Faceless Men. The Doom is endlessly fascinating, from its predictions to the sheer cataclysmic scale of it all. I mean 14 volcanoes erupting at once would make Pompeiis explosion look like a candle to the sun.

Recreating Valyria by painstakingly pouring over texts to replicate what once was is a tragic echo that reverberates through generations. And for a fandom that shouts back and forth about “true Targaryen” definitions it seems most of those don’t care for that echo. The epic demise of a homeland filled with magic and dragons that are never to be seen again should be more than a foot note. A generational trauma that follows every Targaryen - the ever present fear that the Doom will swallow them too - down to Dany and her dragons which would have seemingly signified the return of magic long lost. How could any “true” Targaryen have anything but heartache over the loss of Valyria and the Freehold? How could they not be plagued with the weight on their shoulders that none in Westeros could truly sympathize with?

And I’ve long held a grudge against HBO for the way they mistreat Magic (and race, gender, sexuality, etc) in these fantasy series (no I’m never going to forgive them ESPECIALLY in HotD for not doing the CGI purple eyes [somehow Witcher had it in the budget AND it looked good] because of how much that trait was a distinctly other/outsider signifier) but this stupid little model is actually one of only additions I respect. Because while it can be viewed as some petty distraction for a physically deteriorating chronically ill history buff to get away from his kids - it is the biggest symbol of devotion to Targaryen culture - way more than anything else in the series. So I’ll die on this hill. The legos must be protected.